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Quinte Fishing

Fishing Reports for the Bay of Quinte
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:00 pm 
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Walleye Angler

Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:07 pm
Posts: 377
Location: COBOURG
Heres some of the recent lifting and stocking activity for Cobourg Creek.
The Atlantics are released near my house and its nice to see the local schools involved. (future anglers perhaps?)

http://www.chextv.com/2014/04/10/hundre ... n-cobourg/

http://www.northumberlandnews.com/news- ... n-cobourg/


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:27 pm 
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Walleye Wisdom

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Good to see the volunteers out, and it's great for the kids!!! But odds are you will not see those Atlantics again! Do not believe everything you hear. Great educational expierience, but the atlantic program is Waste of time and money.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:59 pm 
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Walleye Angler

Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:07 pm
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Location: COBOURG
Great educational expierience, but the atlantic program is Waste of time and money.

I tend to agree with you Pickerel Killer.....plus...the stretch where they release them, used to be good for Browns.....and the odd Speck....now its full of small Atlantics....with the odd Brown, and very very few Speckled Trout. Plus they lift the Rainbows in the spring and the Chinooks in the fall, into the same stretch, of a relatively small stream. Bit of a cluster**** really!


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:44 pm 
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Baitfish

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:04 am
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Just a big waste of time for those ATS. I'd rather have coho as opposed to ATS. Someone has to realize that the returns are not there.....anybody? Bueller?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:32 pm 
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Walleye

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:25 pm
Posts: 89
I'd like to see the atlantics come back but not at the expense of the already successful rainbow, brown and chinook fishery. Funny how you hear about all the work that's been done in the past 50 years to restore the rivers to better health and productivity but that work was done by many volunteers for the trout fishery. Now the mnr could decide that atlantics take priority, reduce the trout population and take advantage of all that hard work.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:56 pm 
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Walleye Wisdom
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Location: Merrickville, ON
I agree great educational experience, but would like to see more effort put into all the trout/salmon species not just the atlantics.

My class is participating in the Bring Back the Atlantics program, we have about 100 Atlantics in our class right now to be released soon. I really like the program for its educational value.

My school is not in the official area for the program, too far East, near Brockville. So we bought our own equipment (tank, filter, water chiller.....) to participate. Next year I might see if the mnr will let us raise some lake trout or other species we can release closer to our school.

Hats off the to volunteers and organizers of the Bring Bak the Salmon program, but hopes the other salmon and trout species are not totally forgotten.

JimW

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:59 am 
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Walleye Master

Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:31 am
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Location: Wellington Ontario
you guys should go to one of the MNR public meeting that are slated and soon to come up starting the end of April.
I am wondering why you seem to think if they stop the Atlantic program all that money that's spent will automatically go into trout and salmon ?? maybe that money will go into the spotted owl program out in BC


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:21 am 
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Walleye Wisdom

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Posts: 648
Grizzly, what makes you think that money could not be re-directed towards another species? You got OPG as the lead sponsor for the Atlantic program. That's Ontario not BC. Also I have worked in all the nuc plants in Ontario and the amount fish these places kill off is
Unbelievable!!! 8O I think it's great that OPG gives back to the fishery, as they should be! But to say that there money can't be re-directed into a more productive species is not accurate.
I bet if the MNR and OFAH keep lieing to everyone then supporters of the fishery like OPG will just close there chequebook!
Last week I fished the Bruce Power outflow, there were thousands and thousands and thousands of dead gizzards all over the bottom we could see clearly in 20' o water. I think these places should be contributing allot more to the fishery!! As of right now they are not contributing anything, because there funds are just being pissed away.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:53 am 
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Walleye Catcher
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Location: Amherst Island
There are many problems plaguing the return of the native populations of Atlantic salmon, some we are aware of and some, I’m sure, we are not. One of the biggest problems is the addition of thiaminase to the food chain. Thiaminase I is an enzyme which breaks down Vitamin B, vitamin B deficiencies leads to many problems for salmonid species but Atlantic salmon and lake trout seem to be the most susceptible. These problems include reproductive failure, EMS (early mortality syndrome) and reduced muscle energy. It has mainly been thought to be attributed to the invasive alewife population, which are high in thiaminase. The MNR and the DEC have begun stocking an extirpated species of Cisco called bloaters in Lake Ontario to try to add a thiaminase deficient species back into the food chain. However Alewife is not the only species in the lake that are rich in thiaminase, cyanobacteria and zebra mussels are also very high in the enzyme. Round gobies were once thought to be deficient as well but recent studies have shown them to be high as well, most likely due to their diet which consists of zebra mussels. This would cause double the problems for lake trout as the gobies are notorious egg-eaters which are extremely abundant in their spawning areas and this seems to be the lake trout’s main source of food during their time during spawning when the trout are shallow. Stream habitat has changed a lot since the Atlantics were lost in the late 1800’s early 1900’s (slightly longer than the decade as reported in the news story) which could also be a problem for natural reproduction. They have apparently done studies to say this is not the case but I have seen no evidence from them on returns to say this is fact. This leaves the next question, with all the Atlantics being stocked over the past decades, are we seeing the catch rates we should from anglers for the amounts that have been put in the lake? Where are they all? Are they affected by EMS at the life-stage they are being released? Are they being predated before they reach adult size? Have they done studies to show that Pacifics and Atlantics can cohabitate? Are they even staying in the lake or are they migrating to the ocean down the St. Lawrence? Even without the natural reproduction, it seems they are not even viable as a put grow and take fishery at this point. I am looking forward to attending the meeting in Belleville to see if they have answers to any of the questions.
At the same time it's great to see them getting kids involved in the stocking program.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:46 am 
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Walleye Master
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Location: Wellington
Gentlemen, I love a good debate but the Public Information sessions is the best place to get your questions answered. I hate conspiracy theories. The problem is that these absolutely do nothing to help or support the fishery in the area. And the Quinte area, in my opinion, has the greatest angling opportunities in North America.

In the beginning, I like some of you, was not in favor the Atlantic program. Over time my view has changed somewhat as I became more aware of the aims and objectives. I have formed a some what neutral position on the project.

The Atlantic Salmon Restoration program has it's assets and it's liabilities.

Assets - 1st - education of our youth about the fishery.
2nd - stream & trib rehab.
3rd - in time hopefully another species to angle for.

Liabilities - There are not many that come to mind. There may be some in the future and if that happens the safe guards are in place like public information sessions, public consultation in the EBR listings, and your FMZ20 council that advises the Ministry through a process of meeting regularly through out the year. They most always agree with our concerns and recommendations. Also you can send a letter or e-mail to Glenora, to the Lake Manager with your concerns instead of posting here. That will take about the same time and effort.

The Atlantic Salmon Restoration Program in the beginning was slated for 20 years. They didn't expect to get immediate results. The program is trying to produce returning adults that may or may not reproduce in the future. It is not like the other introduced salmonids that they are stocking. The coho, chinook, steel head & brown stockings are to support a fishery that is already in place and is some what naturalized. These stockings are to create immediate angling opportunities. The Atlantic program is aimed at creating future angling opportunities.

I have heard & read many conspiracy theories that the Atlantic program will cause a reduction of stocking of other species. Not so !!! The OMNR and the New York DEC have a bilateral agreement and a target to stock each year. This is based on forage base assessment from much research work done by both agencies. Stocking of the other salmonid species is now policy of the OMNR and can not be changed easily in the future.

Raising fish in the hatcheries is relatively cheap and in Ontario we have the space to raise the Atlantics regardless of what you have read. Research and assessment is the expensive part of the process and most if not all of the funding comes from the Great Lakes Fisheries Commission or other federal agencies. These are monies that we normally would not have and during the Atlantic research we are also collecting valuable data on other species.

Whether you, or I, think the program will work or not is not important. The important part is the research work and habitat restoration.

See you on the 22nd in Belleville.
Al

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:08 am 
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Walleye Catcher
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Location: Amherst Island
Thanks for the input Al. I too think that the research going into the Atlantic salmon program is only beneficial to the lake as a whole. What I'm curious about is what are all the factors effecting their return? Returning the cisco is a good first step. The research could also help the return of natural lake trout populations as they share some of the similar issues with reproduction. I'm hoping to make it to the CLOSA meeting tomorrow and would like to discuss this with you further to see what your take on the situation is.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:13 am 
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Walleye Angler

Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:18 am
Posts: 231
I know there is lots of back and forth between the pacific camp and the atlantic camps and to be honest I dont have a dog in this fight because I rarely fish for salmon and almost never catch the bastards so here's my non bias take...

I think all side agree having it part of the classroom is a great idea. Good job there.

I have no problem with the reintroduction of the Atlantics, the one benefit I see from it is they are repeat spawners unlike the pacifics. Now the chances of them naturally reproducing?? Who knows, the pacifics have had next to no luck reproducing so Iam not sure the Atlantics will either, still too early to tell. If I had to bet on it I would say there will be limited natural reproduction. Nothing against the Atlantics, its just that there is such limited suitable spawning space. Think about what the Pacifics have to go through to get far enough up a river and they are able to expend all of their energy because they are done. The atlantics still need to get back to the lake.
If after a reasonable period of time (I will let the scientist figure out what constitutes reasonable but I suspect it will be 20-25 yrs before you can conclusively say) they do determine that there is no natural reproduction then I dont see much value in continue stocking them. Put that money into Rainbows if they want to focus on a species that has more than a 4 yr life cycle.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 11:26 am 
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Walleye Master
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Location: Wellington
EvesR wrote:
The research could also help the return of natural lake trout populations as they share some of the similar issues with reproduction. I'm hoping to make it to the CLOSA meeting tomorrow and would like to discuss this with you further to see what your take on the situation is.


I'll be there so after Scott's presentation on Navionics we can open it up for discussion and I will give you my take on what is happening.

jjz, like your post here.

"I know there is lots of back and forth between the pacific camp and the atlantic camps and to be honest I dont have a dog in this fight"

As far as the two camps there is no back and forth. I know this for a fact. However there is a lot of back and forth with the keyboard warriors on other web boards.
It is too early to see much in returns for the Atlantic program.

In the beginning biologists assumed that there would be no natural reproduction of chinook or coho and for a while some presumed that to be true. In 2008 to 2011 all the chinook stocked in Lake Ontario by the OMNR and the New York DEC had the adipose fin removed. The results of the study since, indicates as high as 50% of the chinook out there have been naturally reproduced. So there is hope for the Atlantic. Some bios that I have talked to think that the chinook get a thiamine free diet or a boost in thiamine just before they spawn.

See ya Wednesday evening.
Al

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 11:38 am 
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Walleye

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:25 pm
Posts: 89
Hi Al,

You’ve been working in the fisheries and have contributed a huge amount to the great fishing we have in the wellington area and we all owe you a debt of gratitude for that, but I have to respectfully disagree with you on several points. The whole move to support native species (including Atlantics) over the successful naturalized sport fisheries in the province is not a conspiracy theory and I can point to several facts that support this:

1. Fact: Atlantics and other native species are now being given priority on the credit river, here are some direct excerpts from the 2013 Credit River Fisheries Management Plan: http://iwffc.ca/credit-river-fisheries- ... mber-2013/ (the part about discontinuing brown trout stocking in the credit river if it competes with redside dace is really concerning)

“It should also be noted that brown trout are known to compete with brook trout and Atlantic salmon and are now considered an invasive species in some areas of North America (http://www.invasive.org). If rainbow trout are allowed access into the middle Credit River, there are concerns that competition between young rainbow trout and brook trout and Atlantic salmon will have negative impacts on these native species.”

Management objectives for Atlantic Salmon 2. prevention of competition with introduced species such as rainbow and brown trout;

Brown trout are known to negatively compete with native brook trout. More recently, this species has been considered as invasive in the province of British Columbia and states of New York and California.

Management Objective: Permit and encourage harvest of brown trout, with no size restrictions, in the middle and upper Credit River where this species overlaps with brook trout and Atlantic salmon range. Continue to pass brown trout above the Streetsville Fishway and restrict further access beyond the Norval Dam all year round. Supplemental stocking of brown trout in the main Credit River below Norval is supported unless range overlap with resident species-at-risk, such as Redside Dace, is discovered. Should this situation arise, supplemental brown trout stocking will be discontinued.


2. Fact: Steelhead stocking in the eastern end of lake Ontario was discontinued by the MNR due to the perceived smolting of rainbow down the St. Lawrence establishing naturalized runs of steelhead on the east coast. The reports mention genetic testing done that confirmed 50% of the fish were ganaraska strain which means they could come from any MNR stocked steelhead or natural fish from the ganaraska itself. Other sources of steelhead on the east coast were confirmed from the salmon river and other NY stocked fish. Atlantic salmon can just as easily travel down the st. Lawrence and interfere with existing native populations on the east coast.[/i]

3. Fact: MNR stopped assisting in the steelhead lift on Cobourg creek this year, the MNR allowed the lift to proceed but did not go out of their way to help, guess with the cut backs the money defaults to the Atlantic salmon restoration program.

My point is that it’s pretty easy to see which way the wind is blowing in Ontario with regards to how the fishery will be managed in the future. This is just the start, its seems that some now believe that we have an obligation to restore our environment back to some theoretical state that existed before people were here, regardless of what happens to our recreational fishery. As an avid recreational angler I can’t support this management practice as it has no basis in reality. We spend money on license fees, tax dollars and put thousands back into the economy and that money goes to support these objectives. We should have a say in how that money is spent and what the objectives should be, it should not just be based on what some biologists believe and what some special interest groups think is best for our environment. I believe everything I’ve stated here is true, so how can you say that it is a conspiracy theory when these are taken directly from the MNRs published documentation.

I would like to see and catch Atlantic salmon and I’ve sent emails to the MNR in support of the program, that was until I started to see what the cost of this program is. the damage that the program can and will do to the existing fishery far far exceeds the benefits IMO.

Lets just hope they don't find native / non-native species overlap at the sandbanks. If anyone can directly refute these statements please let me know because I would prefer to think our fisheries have a brighter future!


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 11:49 am 
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Walleye

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:25 pm
Posts: 89
jjz wrote:
I know there is lots of back and forth between the pacific camp and the atlantic camps and to be honest I dont have a dog in this fight because I rarely fish for salmon and almost never catch the bastards so here's my non bias take...

I think all side agree having it part of the classroom is a great idea. Good job there.

I have no problem with the reintroduction of the Atlantics, the one benefit I see from it is they are repeat spawners unlike the pacifics. Now the chances of them naturally reproducing?? Who knows, the pacifics have had next to no luck reproducing so Iam not sure the Atlantics will either, still too early to tell. If I had to bet on it I would say there will be limited natural reproduction. Nothing against the Atlantics, its just that there is such limited suitable spawning space. Think about what the Pacifics have to go through to get far enough up a river and they are able to expend all of their energy because they are done. The atlantics still need to get back to the lake.
If after a reasonable period of time (I will let the scientist figure out what constitutes reasonable but I suspect it will be 20-25 yrs before you can conclusively say) they do determine that there is no natural reproduction then I dont see much value in continue stocking them. Put that money into Rainbows if they want to focus on a species that has more than a 4 yr life cycle.


I don’t think the chinook are in any danger of being extirpated from the lake as they are the only thing keeping the alewife population at bay (a good thing for the atlantics, lake trout and walleye).


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