Two fer three on Friday the 28th, questions re. air bladder

Hookset · **Posted:** Sun Oct 30, 2005 11:00 am

Re adding a weight to the walleye to take it down to receover, me wonders whether some sort of attachment to the downrigger ball would work...have to think about it.

Don Stokes · **Posted:** Sun Oct 30, 2005 11:40 am

Hello Tomcat
It is good to see your name listed.

I would suggest that most support for fizzing comes from US based individuals. It is something that I have read about a small bit, and has sounded scarey, from the "get go to me", for most anglers.

(US publications, sources and no I cannot cite them.... I go through a lot of material)

The singles greatest area of opportunity I see for angler education remains into how to properly live release and handle fish. I certainly do not have all the answers, but do have access to some very good sources at times.

I am happy that the original poster did broach this subject, as it like so many things are bound to emerge in our information driven age.

Regards
Don Stokes
PS. I just got back from Victoria; my hunch is that your wife would like it there (no comment from me about my feelings about some of the unique aspects of west coast life.....)

Walleye · **Posted:** Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:20 pm

Hi all.
Tomcat. The Biologist I refer to is from the University of Manitoba and he is the Weighmaster/ Judge at many tournements out West. As far as Iknow the MNR has done very little to investigate Fizzing and/or any other form of effective live release. The only info I have seen on mortality rates were from the US and they ranged from very poor to very good. I know a Guy who caught a half pound Perch in 75 feet of water. The fish bellied imediately and was fizzed. The temp was 95 degrees and the fish got forgotten about for two days. I open his livewell and the fish is spunky enough that I had trouble catching it. We ate it. If I catch a fourteen lber and it bellies when I try and release it, what to do? I am not going to eat it, I am not going to put it on the wall, I will try and save it using weights first, then Fizzing. I think I will however look at the method Dan Elliot has mentioned as it might be the best I have heard of.

Don. I think that fishing shallower would be best, and certainly the faster the release after netting the better. I have an ethical question for everyone. Your out fishing shallow for 2 days and getting skunked. Your buddies come in with great stories to tell each day. The fish are however being hooked in forty feet of water. So the question is how deep are we going to fish on day 3? My answer is forty feet and I will do my best for the fish that I can. This topic is very touchy and I have only brought up Fizzing as one way to try and save a fish that at first looks like it may not be releasable. Let's say I have a fourteen lber and it dies. What do I do with it? These are tough questions I think, and maybe through discussing these topics here we can come up with some answers. I have already found a new way to try and release fish.
I am coming to Quinter for the one day tourney, are any of you guys going to fish it, if so it will be great to meet you.
Cheers Clark

Don Stokes · **Posted:** Mon Oct 31, 2005 10:58 am

Walleye
If you have the opportunity you may find the work of Professor Bruce Tuft (Queens U/ Kingston, Ont.) interesting. He has done a considrable amount with catch and release. He is also a fisherman.

If you ever get a chance, he is a solid speaker for any fishing organization (sorry to the academic crowd...... the general public deserves more attention). I would actually like to see someone like him at the Toronto Sportsmens Show or at some kind of special event for the tournament avids.

Regards
Don Stokes

Tomcat · **Joined:** Sun Aug 31, 2003 10:59 am **Posts:** 33

Clark:

Let me first emphasize that I too am a walleye fisherman and very much enjoy landing walleyes and eating them too. However, my own personal sportsman ethics prevent me from fishing for walleyes deeper than 30 feet because I don’t want to needlessly kill walleyes (due to over-inflated swim bladders).

I contend that most fishermen who venture out on the BOQ for a days fishing don’t go to catch only one big walleye. On the contrary, as could be expected, most go to catch as many as they can. Ethically speaking, there’s nothing wrong with that, as long as released walleyes have an excellent chance at survival. However, fishing walleyes at depths greater than 30 feet can greatly jeopardize their survival. Fishing even deeper, at 40 or 50 feet, increases the mortality risk beyond ethical acceptability.

While I appreciate that you believe you can properly fizz walleyes with over-inflated swim bladders, many fish biologists will admit to not being willing to try it. In an earlier post, I referred you to a 2001 MNR publication that reviewed fizzing. I telephoned the author (Steve Kerr) this morning to ascertain whether there was more current information. There is not. Most Canadian jurisdictions still discourage the practice of fizzing. The publication also reported that 27 states discouraged fizzing, 10 states had no position on fizzing and 8 states advocated fizzing. It would appear that the professionals overwhelmingly discourage fizzing.

WRT to other methods to help walleyes survive over-inflated swim bladders, Dan posted about a technique (he had read about) where a 10 lb clip-on weight is used to return a fish to depth and then the weight is retrieved. While Steve Kerr mentioned that he was aware of such methods, he also pointed out that on going research (by Dr. Bruce Tufts at Queens University) indicates that re-pressurization takes a lot longer (actually hours) than first thought.

As to your ethical question, as you might expect, I wouldn’t fish for walleyes at 40 feet. That’s my own personal decision and I realize that not everyone will make the same decision, as is their right.

WRT to walleye tournaments and the so-called conundrums (wrt to survivability issues) that fishermen face, I have suggested that such tournaments could be length based rather than weight based. Longest length tournaments would facilitate almost immediate catch and release after a length measurement and a photo (digital camera image as proof of length) are taken. There would no requirement to stress fish via long livewell times. While there are some valid concerns with length based tournaments, such concerns are not insurmountable.

Good luck on your upcoming trip to the BOQ.

hoser · **Posted:** Mon Oct 31, 2005 2:00 pm

having a bubbler in the livewell as well as a bit of aquarium salt can do alot to help the fish too, I think there's a bottle of stuff sold as "livewell conditioner" to help keep the fish happy. probably the biggest problem is that ammonia can build up fast in there. even bringing a small pail and doing partial water changes every half hour can help alot. :wink:

RJackson · **Posted:** Mon Oct 31, 2005 6:27 pm

I can't personally understand why one would fish deeper than 30 feet....we had loads of success in the 20-30 range......one of our guys was getting them in the 15 foot range....big numbers all around...

We all know it damages a fish to pull em from that deep...so why do it?

We all learned something from this thread.....and the countless others that have as well....

Great job to all involved in providing such great insight...

RJ

slug · **Joined:** Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:37 pm **Posts:** 211

Tomcat
Quite a thread we have. I enjoyed very much your informative posts and links. I liked this quote, I believe it carries a lot of weight.

Quote:

I contend that most fishermen who venture out on the BOQ for a days fishing don’’t go to catch only one big walleye. On the contrary, as could be expected, most go to catch as many as they can. Ethically speaking, there’’s nothing wrong with that, as long as released walleyes have an excellent chance at survival. However, fishing walleyes at depths greater than 30 feet can greatly jeopardize their survival. Fishing even deeper, at 40 or 50 feet, increases the mortality risk beyond ethical acceptability.

And if I heard they were catching them in a spot deep, I’d head out. I might even get one or two, likely I’d catch a goby instead. But if the fish looks as if they won’t survive, you have to make that ethical call. Should I stay and catch ten more fish even though my released fish may not survive. Anyone, who has ever gone anywhere near the water, already know all about the disappointing behavior of some.

I suspect the best solution for everyone, is through education. Being unsure, or acting on hearsay has been the norm. The problem starts when someone is fishing deep and has so many lines out on planers or whatever, they can’t stop. If they stop the lines are a nightmare! So they tow the fish up to the surface within seconds. I don’t know if giving the fish some time to decompress would help or not. When I rig, it’s all lines up and in, when a fish is on. I could tow it and exhaust it, but why...I take people out to catch a fish. Let them fight it, sometimes lose it. That my friend is fishing. Fishing for the enjoyment of it.

It’s the careless and wasteful attitude, that ticks me off.

Tomcat · **Joined:** Sun Aug 31, 2003 10:59 am **Posts:** 33

Slug:

Thank you for your comments. I concur that education is most likely a good solution. I'm positive that Pete would not have jabbed that walleyes swim bladder with his jack knife blade had he been aware that doing so guaranteed the death of that walleye.

Quote:

And if I heard they were catching them in a spot deep, I’d head out. I might even get one or two, likely I’d catch a goby instead. But if the fish looks as if they won’t survive, you have to make that ethical call. Should I stay and catch ten more fish even though my released fish may not survive.

As to your question, I can not personally support continued fishing for ten more walleye at that depth when the first walleye retrieved exhibited swim bladder inflation (low chance of survival if released).

My rationale goes something like this. We are presently allowed a daily catch and keep limit of 4 walleyes, one of which can be greater than 63 cm (24.8 inches). Suppose the first walleye caught is greater than 63 cm and its swim bladder protrudes out its mouth. No problem yet as this fish could be harvested as the one fish over 63 cm. However, should one continue to fish at this depth to complete the daily catch limit? I contend not. Consider if either the second, the third or the fourth walleye caught is also over 63 cm and also exhibits swim bladder inflation. Now you have a bad situation. You have already harvested your one and only walleye over 63 cm for the day. So what do you do with this second big walleye suffering from swim bladder inflation. You could throw it back and hope for the best - but is that ethically acceptable (knowing most likely that the walleye won't survive)? For me, personally, it isn't.

Consequently, I'll fish shallower waters to avoid the swim bladder inflation problem completely. I may catch less walleyes but I'll enjoy it much more knowing that I'm not needlessly killing walleyes. Catch and release is a great practice if release equates to survival. Of course, there are no quarantees, regardless how we fish. However, if we want to be considered true sportsmen, I contend that we owe released fish the best chance possible.

slug · **Joined:** Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:37 pm **Posts:** 211

Tomcat

I agree 100%.
And it’s unreasonable to even think, of eliminating open water fishing. The public has invested too much into “their fishery” via taxes, licences, and so on. So if a guy wants to fish the North Channel or Glenora for a trophy, he’s earned and paid for the chance. So, there sits the dilemma.

It was good to see the interest and participation in this discussion. That alone, has got to be a positive step. I certainly do have faith, that Pete or any other of the good members, would not intentionally waste their fish.

Referring to this quote in Info. Articles http://www.quintefishing.com/greghorky.htm

Quote:

“One important point for Quinte anglers as you face a changing ecosystem " Don’’t fish memories fish fish!" Go where the fish are, not where you used to catch them.”

So they do. And we depend on our fellow anglers to protect the fishery for each other. If limiting fishing depths to safely fallow regulation is the answer. And if that happens, I bet, I hope, someone will be taking a lot of heat over where are those "memory fish."

slug

slug · **Joined:** Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:37 pm **Posts:** 211

I thought a laugh was needed, so here you go.

http://www.snowpics.net/img/13025

Walleye · **Posted:** Wed Nov 02, 2005 1:17 am

Hi all.
Slug and Tomcat. Excellant replies. I particularly like the one about stopping and pulling everything in to land the fish. I started useing boards about 5 years ago with no experience or advice. I soon learned that the only way I could land a big fish was to stop and clear the gear before bringing the fish in. I also learned that bringing any fish in while continuing to troll{ to avoid messing all the gear } was deadly to the fish. I had forgotten about the learning curve until it was mentioned here.
The fishing in Quinte this time of year should be in depths that don't require heroic efforts to keep the fish alive, rather it will probably be the fight, or dragging of the fish that will be mortal. If this is the case, putting the stressed fish in the live well and using additives, weights, and the pump on should do the trick. Here are some others things I have tried. I have a forty foot garden hose with a 5 lb ball and a high pressure pump attached to one end and the other into my livewell. If I am cathing fish in 20 feet of water I put the hose down 20 ft. It gives the fish the same temp as they are used to as well as the same PH. This is more important in the summer. An easy way is to plug your livewell outlets and put some ice in your well and use the recirc only. I have found the most successful way so far is to put the weights on. This does take time however. If your in a tournement situation and you catch a fish with ten minutes to go the weights probably won't work. Most weighmasters pull their hands around the fish to make sure weights aren't on so the fish looks healthy. Most of what I have recommended I apply whether in a tourney or just out fishing.
This is a good thread and anybody with other ideas should please post them.
Cheers Clark

Méchant Malade · **Posted:** Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:19 am

Excellent topic and excellent answers. Never to late to learn.
I got a question in regard of that. I'm quite often very surprise when I read post on line size; it seems that many fishermens are using line in the range of 12-20 pds. for a fish that is not known for a big fighter. I'm using 6-8 pds lines and just take more time to bring the fish in and release it after he regain some power.
For Mr. Walleye is it possible that he would be more easy for the fish using smaller line and that way he could de-compressed like a diver coming back on top of the water slowly?
I too stop the motor when a fish hit.
Excuse my poor english.

Tomcat · **Joined:** Sun Aug 31, 2003 10:59 am **Posts:** 33

Clark:

I was reviewing another fishing board (http://www.fish-hawk.net/) this morning and a fellow had posted the web reference to the MNR publication on fizzing. Just in case you hadn't already looked up the publication, here's the reference (thanks to Puterfish): http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/MNR/pubs/Fizzing.pdf

greenlantern · **Posted:** Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:30 am

since we started catching big walleye in the fall, using the loong line and board method now common, we have never encountered a fish with its bladder extended. We run lines as long as 300 ft back, use deep divers and clip weights as large as 1 oz., 25 ft ahead of the lure. How deep we run is a factor of boat speed, wind direction, currents, etc but we are probably running 30ft or more. The fish fight hard all the way to the boat and swim away happily after a picture and before we congratulate one another. They are still frisky enough to release themselves if we are clumsy removing the clip. To be compressing, these fish would have to be winched in quickly or caught jigging a deep hole. The fish controls how fast it comes to the surface if slow and steady pressure is applied. We have never caught 47 fish in 1 day as each fish takes a while to reel in from 200+ ft back and my arms couldn't support that many battles, but we feel like kings and the fish we don't plan to eat all swim off to live another day. The pleasure is in the voyage and not the destination.

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Two fer three on Friday the 28th, questions re. air bladder

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