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Fishing Reports for the Bay of Quinte
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:01 pm 
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Walleye Master
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Grizzly wrote:
BigMac wrote:
Grizzly wrote:
I think walleye have only one gene I believe they get so big because of food base and they are eating machines lol erie has more walleye but Ontario has bigger makes sense
Ontario is a bigger deeper lake



Isn't that like saying humans are all the same genetics. Not at all true. Many athletic families thrive from generation to generation. I feel same would happen with any species of fish or mammal except at a faster evolution due to shorter life span.

Genetics...DNA.... x and y chromosomes ... maaah, im not a scientist but if you wanna believe quinte walleye are some mutant strain of super walleye hell you go for it bud there is people right now in the MNR who think the walleye we catch could all steam from one perfect spwan season where every thing lined up perfectly back in the early 80.s and that's what brought them back to quinte and trust me those spawning fish were not 12 beauties we catch today but directly related in fact there was a native hatchery in dez that might have played an important roll to the walleye fishing we have today on BOQ


So you don't believe in evolution and superior genetics then. Makes sense.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:06 pm 
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Walleye Wisdom

Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:28 pm
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Sometimes I wish I had some different genetics! Maybe trade some good looks for some athleticism!!! Lol :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:11 pm 
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Walleye Angler

Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:07 pm
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Location: COBOURG
Scott.....I found that paper quite interesting,and insightful, thanks for posting it!


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:22 pm 
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Walleye
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Location: The Mighty St. Lawrence
Great article Scott. I think this section of the conclusions sums it up pretty well:

"More generally, our results provide further support
for a change in the way that populations are managed: if
certain individuals in a population contribute more to
recruitment than others, then these individuals should be
a priority of management (e.g., Forbes and Peterman
1994, Marteinsdottir and Thorarinsson 1998, Murawski
et al. 2001, Berkeley et al. 2004, Law 2007, Secor 2007,
Venturelli et al. 2009). We do not recommend strategies
that ignore overall mortality; rather, we recommend
additional controls on the distribution of mortality
among individuals of varying reproductive value."

Now I'm no sciencetomologist but I'd bet my spoon box that's where your one over 24.5" stems from.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:25 pm 
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Walleye Master

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Is one 10 pound fish more valuable than two 4-7's?? Maybe so....but if all these mid-sized walleye were released, they would eventually become 10 pounders....

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:38 pm 
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Walleye
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Exactly. The average 24.5" walleye is just over 5lbs. So the average 6, 7, 8, 9, 10lb and bigger are all being protected with the one over 24.5 rule.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:39 pm 
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Walleye Master

Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:42 pm
Posts: 1211
Location: kingston, ontario
This should be a slot limit tournament, its open to any lake, there is lots of great walleye lakes in the kingston area. all north of lake ontario have a slot limit, meaning its not fair for those guys..
a double digit fish is not unheard of on the back lakes, just not as common to get a bunch of them vs, the quinte walleye spawn run.

This is why they say there is slot limits in fmz 18
read the rest of it at http://www.orwl.ca/documents/Conservati ... ntario.pdf
Walleye in FMZ 18
16 out of 35 or 45.7% of walleye lakes are:
Unhealthy/Collapsed including:
Pringle Lake, Sheldrake Lake, Second Depot
Lake, Pine Lake, Redhorse Lake, Pike Lake,
Dalhousie Lake, Mississippi Lake, Long Lake,
Horseshoe Lake, Mississagagon Lake, Malcolm
Lake, Bennett Lake, Stoco Lake, Beaver Lake,
Wolfe Lake


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 5:14 am 
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Walleye Master

Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:31 am
Posts: 3058
Location: Wellington Ontario
West Lake Willows wrote:
There is absolutely no arguing that a 10lb walleye is more valuable to fishery then a 5 lb walleye.

There are several studies that prove the fry from mature walleye have a higher survival rate. Find me one that says otherwise.

Read this: Maternal influences on population dynamics: evidence from an exploited freshwater fish by PAUL A. VENTURELLI,

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxbtlS ... sp=sharing

Scott

Hahaha man you made me read that and im more lost than ever lol I think id have a better chance at understanding my cell phone fine print contract than the mess of mumbo jumbo I read that basically says a bigger fish produces better eggs.........is there no collation in respect to the male fish??? no, no there isn't is the male not just as important in the roll of genetics as the female?? what you are talking is controlled lab work over mother nature. so someone could print a paper of his hypothesis.. (AND GET PAID).. its a safe bet that two parents neither over 5'2 will ever raise a 7'6 basketball player but hey im sure stranger things have happened for the record I will always believe the age of a fish is much more important in relationship to the spawning years a fish has left in its cycle of life. yes the 12 pound fish has served many years and might still have a few years left in service but a 5 pound fish could serve us for decades and become a 14 pound fish one day... lets just face it guys the reason we do not keep big fish is because they taste like crap


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 5:23 am 
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Walleye Master

Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:31 am
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Location: Wellington Ontario
The following article was posted on the "Walleye List" www.walleyelist.com by Bob Hesse

I contacted Fred Snyder, a biologists with Ohio Sea Grant who has studied Lake Erie since 1974 (and who is a dedicated fisherman), and asked him about the Lake Erie spawn fishing debate and he responded. He gave me permission to use his statement, it is very long (and very interesting). I think Fred has to be considered an authority on Lake Erie and its fish and I have found him to be very honest and open about
the lake every time I have questioned him. Not only that but he’s a nice guy :-) Bob

Fred said:
"I do not believe that Lake Erie sport fishing, as it currently is regulated by the states, has a negative impact on our sport fish populations. Reasons?

The Great Lakes Fishery Commission uses population data supplied by the states and Ontario to set walleye harvest quotas, aimed at protecting the integrity of these populations. They determine an allowable harvest that protects a spawning stock large enough to maintain the population. Ohio, the largest sport harvester by far, is consistently BELOW its allotted quota each year.

Are we overharvesting? In any overharvested fish population, the most desirable fish (big-uns) are removed at a rate that crops the population down to the point where relatively few keepers remain.. The population is cropped downed to the minimum acceptable size - i.e., it seems nothing but little ones are left. Clearly, survival that allows successful reproduction is the critical point. Is survival adequate?

PWT anglers just brought in 346 walleyes weighing over 10 lbs. each. To provide that quality of fishing requires large numbers of fish to survive to old age. And this harvest of older, trophy size walleye has been consistent for many years - there are always more.

Every time the PWT comes to western Lake Erie (I think it’s about nine times now), they always set big fish records. If sport fishing was hurting the population, shouldn’t they be catching fewer big ones, not more of them?

I also submit that these larger walleye need to be caught if we are to gain maximum benefit from the fishery. By the time a female has reached 8-10 years old, she has spawned several times, successfully replacing herself (and others). At this age, while her egg numbers may be high, the viability of the eggs has dropped greatly - she’s worth less as a spawner than a 4-6 year old female. Look at any hatchery and you won’t see a breeder trout over five or six pounds. Much better fry production comes from younger, smaller females, so the hatchery manager gets rid of the big-uns. They aren’t worth feeding. In Lake Erie, the best fry production comes from female walleye in the 17-24 inch range. Those are the ones most anglers put in the cooler while releasing the whoppers "to spawn." TV star anglers have done a lot to romanticize this practice.

So should we be restricting fishing during March and April or making anglers throw back walleye in the 17-24 inch range? No.

Remember the allowable harvest concept. Lake Erie has a high rate of fish production, and current regulations keep harvest within the surplus that can be safely removed. Our evidence of this is the overall high survival rate that lets us catch bigger walleye on the average than anywhere else in this country - year after year.

I hope no one is still complaining that overfishing wiped out the huge walleye population we had in the late 1980s. That population came about from unprecedented hatches that have never been repeated (and these hatches were produced by relatively smaller spawning stocks). It led to an ecologically unbalanced lake. Walleye growth rates began to slow, and forage fish were severely cropped down. Remember trying to get lake shiners for perch fishing in 1988 and 1989? We were all using fatheads and golden shiners. The walleye stock today may be smaller, but it it sustainable.

The biggest problems seem to come from great expectations. Fishing is so good that we expect to slam the walleye every time we go out. But the various stocks move around considerably and continually shift feeding behavior. A couple of slow trips and the cries arise that Lake Erie is fished out. (This also implies great fishing expertise – if they were there, we would catch them. If we made a poor catch, it’s because the lake is fished out). Last August and September the message boards were full of complaints that that the wildlife agencies were totally wrong about the walleye population and that it was all but gone (oddly, a few folks still did fine in those months). That same population provided fishing this month (April 2002) that has been described as spectacular. It would be an interesting challenge to find another lake anywhere that provides such great walleye fishing year after year, but draws so many angler complaints.

Even in its lower-catch years, Lake Erie has remained the world’s most spectacular walleye fishery. And judging from all those fish which reach old age year after year, it’s not due to change. Let’s relax and enjoy it.

Fred"


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:18 am 
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Walleye Angler

Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:07 pm
Posts: 377
Location: COBOURG
Grizzly.....you've supported your point very well ! Good debate on both sides.....


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:39 am 
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Jumbo Perch

Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2007 5:59 am
Posts: 47
Location: St Catharines
If you want to see a perfect example of destroying the genetics of a species you only have to look to Cooks Bay Lake Simcoe. The over harvest of large Jumbo Perch for many years has resulted in a huge over population of so called dink perch. For years it was easy to fish Cooks and catch limits of large Jumbo perch, everyone kept the big ones and returned the dinks, now you need to go through a hundred dinks to get a few decent fish for a meal. The population still remains, but the quality of the species has suffered dramaticly.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 7:12 am 
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Walleye Master
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:48 am
Posts: 1887
Location: West Lake, ON
Yes a 5 lber COULD one day make it to a 12 lber and do lots for the fishery. But, why remove a 12 lber that IS doing lots for the fishery? That's like trading your star player for a bench player because the bench player MAY one day be good. Doesn't make sense.

As for Fred Snyder's comments, they are interesting and for the most part I agree with everything he says. If you ever see the quota allotments for the sport fishery and the commercial fishery on Erie then you realize how negligible the sport fishery is. I will say that Erie and Quinte are completely different beasts though. I also completely agree with him that sport anglers quantity the state of the fishery with their fishing results and that is grotesquely flawed. Just look at Lake O and the salmon fishery last summer. Everyone was ready to lynch the MNR.

I do however, categorically disagree with his statements about egg viability, I read another study about the viability of walleye eggs in younger and older females. I went something like this.

***please note - I'm just illustrating the concept using made up egg numbers. The viability percentage is very close to the studies results****

A 5 lb walleye has 100 eggs and has 90% viability. So 90 eggs are good.

A 10 lb walleye has 1000 eggs but has 70% viability. So 700 eggs are good.

So the statement that that a 5 lb fish has greater viability is correct. It has 90% viability vs 70% viability.

BUT..... Looking at the whole picture a 10 lb walleye has 700 good eggs vs 90 good eggs in the 5 lb fish and as per the precious study the fry are bigger and healthier.

**please note again those numbers aren't exact but illustrate the concept. If I find the study I'll post it**

There is just NO WAY (when discussing sustainability of a trophy fishery) you can suggest harvesting mature walleye and releasing juvenile fish.

Bottom line is I believe the fishery benefits from releasing a mature walleye. I will NEVER criticize anyone for keeping what they are legally allowed to harvest. That is their right and just because I don't like it doesn't mean it is wrong, it just means I don't like it. Heck, I'm a charter captain I am single handedly responsible for the harvest of hundreds of fish a year. I won't throw stones at anyone for harvesting their legal limit.

One thing I do like to see is interest in this topic. Just the fact that this is a heated discussion is great and means we have anglers that love and care about our fishery.

Scott


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:20 pm 
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Walleye Master

Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:31 am
Posts: 3058
Location: Wellington Ontario
For the record Scott I 100% get your point and they are very good points made in fact I agree with many points you have made and honestly im just tossing out some food for thought as for myself I am on the fence like you said its your or there right to keep a big fish myself don't know why you would unless you plan to mount the fish its defiantly not the best eating fish once they get that big.
We are lucky you and I BOQ is our back yard playground defiantly not the case for many who have been reading this thread they have to drive many hours spend more then I for a day of fishing. might get the chance one time a year came to our playground to catch BIG FISH and many guys will and do take them home for a few reasons im sure. To show people back home a true trophy walleye, to eat, to brag.to enter into a big fish derby and then eat it. and you as a guide im sure more than anyone knows this simply because you are a guide . I know just like I know the sun will rise tomorrow you would never allow someone to take 2 over 24.5. but would never tell someone they cant take home a 10-12 pound fish home that they caught as a one over 24.5 on your boat.
Way I see it is we are a lot alike, I love to fish as do you..i want to see my grandkids catch fish just as you do, I want to protect not destroy the future. Where we differ is I am just a fisherman who loves to fish born and raised doing it . You and Joe Maybe even Golf Pro when he was (Or maybe still is) a guide. just to name a few The guy who owns the tackle shop, the boat marina, the cottage rental people are stakeholders in the industry You have more at stake if the fishing takes a dive. You guys have paid dearly to get where you now are .and have much more to loose then a guy who just likes to fish. is that wrong? defiantly not!!
The common ground is we care. all of us care! but I do have to question if you feel just as strongly if you were on a back lake where walleye are all 3 pound fish and a trophy fish is 5 pounds . would any of you care as much about a big fish derby ?
Seems I grew up in the times of big fish derbies, winner take all. as a rule I never enter them, or any derby for that matter unless its for a special cause. (Last year I won 3ed place in pike division right here on Westlake and donated my prize money back to the cause) Honestly Derby fishing just aint my thing, since I grew up with it I will never say its the wrong thing to do. how can I ? I just choose not to fish in them.
Please forgive me for being me, its the only way I know how to be. Chuck


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:51 pm 
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Walleye Master

Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:05 pm
Posts: 1985
Just speaking for myself here, but I wasn't suggesting that harvesting mature walleye, and releasing mid aged walleye would be better for the fishery, but maybe keeping them 4-7's in the water is just as important. Not sure why anybody would want to keep one of them big ole' girls anyways...lol
Will these older fish not die sooner or later?? They will need to be replaced at some time by middle aged fish I'm guessing.

Anyways guys....this is just my opinion. (Not sure if it's right or wrong...lol) Thanks for posting some of that info. Great reading!!!

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:36 pm 
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Walleye Angler

Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 10:32 am
Posts: 216
Sorry but I just can't resist. Can we not say the same thing about all the bass tournaments being held up and down the St. Lawrence and out to the big water? We now open the season a week earlier when fish are most vulnerable (at least in Lake Ontario) waters and watch as tournament and non tournament anglers catch fish after fish remove them from their nests and all the young that have managed to make it this far be it fry or egg are exposed to all those predators waiting to eat them! I applaud the quinte series for cutting off Lake Ontario,its to bad other series events held the first two weeks of the season don't follow their example. On the flip side should I be upset with those anglers myself included who have paid for their licence which then allows them to fish wherever and whenever? No I can't, it boils down to personal ethics. Every opener has fish on beds, fish that are done spawning and fish that have not moved up to spawn, so there are fish that are or should be"ethicly" ok to target. I wish the ministry would review the opening for Lake Ontario and the St. Lawrence and move it by at minimum a week but in reality it probably should be two. Right now these waters are in my opinion the best smallmouth bass fishing anywhere in the world, but I also fear this could change if something doesn't give.

Gord


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