What's the daily limit for the derby??

Guest · **Posted:** Sun Apr 25, 2004 2:59 pm

Ontario’s fishing regulations are clear for true sportsmen.

In Division 8, only one (1) walleye greater than 63 cm (24.8 in.) in length may be “retained” in any one day. Retained equates to keeping a fish any longer than it takes to decide whether the fish will be retained or released (immediately).

It is more than interesting to observe how so many fishermen, who think of themselves as sportsmen, spend so much time trying to find ways around the rules. For example, one suggestion was if a large walleye is caught early in the day, then keep the walleye in the live well the rest of the day just in case one were to catch a larger walleye – and if one does, then release the first walleye. From a rules perspective, once a fisherman decides to retain a fish, he can not un-retain that fish 2 or 3 hours later. From an ethical perspective, the trauma from hours spent in a live well could very well cause the fish to die after release. Indeed, just consider the number of walleye that did not survive the recovery tank in last year’s tournament. 100 % live release - it ain't!!

While it is true that most bass tournaments view “culling” as an acceptable practice, there is an ongoing dispute between tournament organizers and MNR officials regarding the prohibition of highgrading.

Then there’s the group who couldn’t care less what the official interpretation is, it’s only their own interpretation that makes any sense. I wouldn’t want to be in a golf tournament with these guys either.

DanElliot · **Joined:** Mon Apr 08, 2002 8:59 am **Posts:** 4329

Guest,
You're out to lunch about the dispute between the MNR and Tourney organizations regarding " highgrading". Infact there has never been a better spirit of cooperation between the 2 groups as witnessed in the press release issued earlier this year. I have included it here for your reading. By the sounds of your comments 'guest', it almost sounds like you are a Peta fan ("the trauma from hours spent in a live well... ").

Ontario Competitive Fishing Council

April 5, 2004

Press Release.

The Canadian Sportfishing Industry Association Announces the Formation of the ONTARIO COMPETITIVE FISHING COUNCIL

Peterborough, ON

Tom Brooke, President of the Canadian Sportfishing Industry Association (CSIA) announced that: “For the first time, the fishing industry, competitive event organizers, anglers, and the provincial government have come together to address competitive fishing in Ontario. From these discussions I am pleased to announce the formation of the ONTARIO COMPETITIVE FISHING COUNCIL.“

A steering group made up of representatives from a number of tournament organizations including Bassmania, the Canadian Fishing Tour, the Ontario BASS Federation, representatives of the Centre for Sustainable Watersheds, as well as anglers and Ministry of Natural Resources staff has been working for a number of months developing the framework for the Competitive Fishing Council (CFC).

The Council will provide a source of information for the public, anglers, organizers, and fisheries staff who are interested in any aspect of competitive angling in Ontario, whether it be live release tournaments, derbies, or contests. The Council will in the next few months be actively developing event guidelines, best management practices, and compiling a list of as many events as possible in Ontario. The Council will also be prepared to address social issues associated with competitive fishing, and will provide advice to the Ministry of Natural Resources on competitive fishing matters.

The Ontario BASS Federation is proud to be an active member in the newly formed CFC. President of the OBF, Bob Peters explained that "The CFC appears to be the next logical step to help unify competitive anglers across this province. We envision that the Council will represent all competitive anglers regardless of which tournament circuits they fish. For the first time as well, we are excited to be able to offer derbies and other fishing contest organizers that may not mandate live release, an avenue to participate.”

David Maraldo, Fisheries Section Manager says that “The Ministry of Natural Resources (MNR) supports in principle the concept of the formation of an industry led Competitive Fishing Council for Ontario to assist with addressing issues associated with competitive fishing events.”

The Council is seeking interested people from across Ontario to become involved in this exciting new venture. It is anticipated that eventually the Council will have regional representation, representing a variety of interests from event organizers, participants, cottage associations, and industry.

The Ontario Competitive Fishing Council needs to hear from as many event organizers, anglers, and organizations large or small, as soon as possible. If you are interested in becoming a member of the Council or would like more information, please contact Shirley Maloney at the Canadian Sportfishing Industry Association.

CONTACT INFORMATION:
Shirley Maloney
Canadian Sportfishing Industry Association
427 Pido Rd.
Peterborough, ON K9J 6X7
1-877-822-8881

http://www.ontariocompetitivefishingcouncil.com/

Guest · **Posted:** Mon Apr 26, 2004 11:03 am

Dan:

The following is an excerpt from an MNR response received 19 April 04:

"We have received communication back from our Enforcement Branch and the Fish and Wildlife Branch. Culling is illegal in Ontario; catch and retain is when you do not immediately or forthwith release the fish. If you catch a fish and put it in a live well, it has been retained and must be counted towards your daily limit no matter when you decide to kill it. This is outlined on pages 5 (under catch and possession limits) and 9 (last paragraph under "Handling") of the 2004 Summary of the Fishing Regulations.

Culling is also illegal in tournament situations. The Enforcement Branch has advised the industry that this is an issue, and they are working with them to try and find a resolution to this concern."

Your comment "it almost sounds like you are a Peta fan" was uncalled for and unappreciated. As webmaster. you set a poor example for discussion forums.

Kanuck · **Posted:** Mon Apr 26, 2004 11:33 am

well this is all about wanting to know if a fish brought in from far away in a live well is a potential winner or not.Think of all the gas burned and time and stress and you may realise why some of us may wonder whether or not its worth the run to the nearest weigh in .
Guest ,,,I want to know if you are hiding behind a rule book or if you really fish at all?Maybe you have a fishing game on your game boy?

I enjoy the great outdoors and have spent many nights and days on the beautiful waters of The Bay Of Quinte.Sometimes ,,believe it or not we actually just putter along and DONT even fish!!!!
Do you realise the fish dont jump in the livewell easily?
To catch a walleye is a matter of skill and I am still learning.The excitement of actually hooking one is only suppassed by the thrill of getting it to the net,(a soft rubber one).
Then maybe a quick picture or back in the water immediately.
BUT,when in a derby the idea is to bring in a big one!
So,you must be aware that lots of fish will be unhooked in the water before even reaching for net.
I even use barbless hooks to make release less stressful on fish and myself.
To ask if a method is available to know ahead what the board is at is I think common sense!!
So guest DO YOU HAVE ANY????
If you do I doubt you have the courage or intestinal fortitude to actually put your name to a post.
Dan I salute your educated reply,and yes I Agree with your PETA comment.
I also farm and have had lots of livestock my whole life,dairy cattle to be exact.
my cows and many others cattle are treated better than most of society.Makes sense dont it ,the beasts are a livelyhood not hobby,so you invest in it .Huge vet bills sometimes and preventative bills all the time.
So "guest" unless you are willing to don a survival suit and follow me around all night just two words
Grow UP!

Mike · **Posted:** Mon Apr 26, 2004 12:15 pm

Here is the direct quote from the MNR regulations (page 9) as pointed out by "Guest":

Quote:

Never put a fish that you may release on a stringer, use
a functional livewell or release the fish immediately.

Remember that all fish kept (in a livewell, on a stringer,
etc.) and not immediately released count towards your
daily catch and retain or possession limit.

Any fish put in a live well and not release immediately counts towards you daily possession limit of 1 (one) fish over 25 inches (assuming the fish is over 25").

IMHO, if you release this one and exchange it (cull) for a bigger Waleye you are still within the laws.

Cheers,

Mike

Guest · **Posted:** Mon Apr 26, 2004 12:50 pm

Kanuck:

Please re-read my two posts. Neither post addressed potential methods to alert fishermen as to whether they had caught a contender or not. Rather, my posts addressed incorrect interpretations of Ontario’s fishing regulations that had been posted as part of this thread.

And rather than discuss how Ontario’s Fishing Regulations should be interpreted, both you and Dan both opted to use innuendos with unsubstantiated references to PETA and a lack of courage and intestinal fortitude. And you’re asking me to grow up! LOL!

I was born and raised on a dairy farm and spent my first 20 years there. And it’s where I first learned to hunt and fish. Although I opted for a different career than yourself, fishing has always been a life long endeavour. I have easily released over a hundred 10 lb + walleyes. Although I may not support all of Ontario’s existing fishing regulations, I do attempt to understand and comply with them. When I believe some regulations require amendment, I submit potential changes to the MNR for their consideration.

Guest · **Posted:** Mon Apr 26, 2004 1:08 pm

Mike:

I fully respect your opinion. Indeed, we all have opinions and we should respect everyone else's opinion. However, to my way of thinking, there is a definite difference between any of our individual opinions and the official interpretation by MNR.

Part of the problem stems from the fact that Ontario's Fishing Regulations can be and are routinely interpreted diiferently by individual fishermen than the official interpretation intended by MNR. That's just a fact of life. It's very difficult to write regulations that can only be interpreted one way by everyone.

Although I respect your opinion (IMHO, if you release this one and exchange it (cull) for a bigger Waleye you are still within the laws.), I believe you are incorrect (based on MNR responses to my inqueries). It would be so much easier if someone from the MNR would post the official interpretation here. I truly believe most fishermen want to comply with the regulations.

Kanuck · **Posted:** Mon Apr 26, 2004 1:31 pm

Well like I stated at the begining of my last post, this whole topic was about entering the 25.1 " or let it go and see if the big kahoona comes along.
Perhaps a whole new thread of posts can start here.
BTW. I personnally adhere to the rules at all times as well.
On the subject of
Peta. You still didnt admit or deny it.

Anyway,if you want to have a coffee sometime I would love to buy you one.
Pickeral Park maybe ,
Sat may 1, 9 am.
if you reply and ask I will share my cell phone # or anything alse as long you do too.

cottager · **Posted:** Mon Apr 26, 2004 1:47 pm

Again you don't have both feet in the water "GUEST". One point is to query Kanuck and Dan on their implying their interepretaion to the act and in your post you state the regs state to retain and you follow by your "Retained equates to keeping a fish any longer than it takes to decide whether the fish will be retained or released (immediately). " Say sounds like someone own views or does it use the term "equates" in the regs. Say what a world we would live in if the laws use the term "EQUATES". So now let us get to the other point. Trying to imply that only true sportsman will follow the regs and not want to harm the fish is true to a point. I probably can average a catch of 30 + bass on a poor day on the BAY. All released and no harm. Gee if I put a hook into a fish's mouth doesn't this cause stress? Oh I see that's okay because it's minimal. So now I can keep one over the slot but what constitutes possession? Are you out for a nice day to fish? Go for it. Are you in a competion for the day? Gee, I'll have to keep this one because I caught him earlier and can't let him go because I retained possession of him. Darn it, I'm going to have to let this 15lb go and I was so close to winning that boat. Wait this is a tournament, I forgot that thats why I'm here, see you smaller fish, I'm off with the 15lb to the weigh in. Oh and this is the difference from a "use to be derby to a tournament" Live release. I don't think the Shimano boat races out with every fish brought in for weighing to immediately release. Aren't they concerned about the fishery? No fish - no sale of rods and reels. Oh our "GUEST" will have a good response. If your that concerned over what the law means practice your own good judgement not be the judge in others "interpretation" Oh by the way let me know where you release your 15lb after you took your 7lber in to the scales so I could win the -THE CONTEST. NO, MAYBE YOU SHOULD HANG UP YOUR ROD BECAUSE TO TRAVEL WITH THE FISH IN YOUR LIVEWELL WILL DO MORE HARM TO THE FISH. Hey, try tying some bread to a piece of string with no hook and tell me how many you get in the boat. Oh don't go to Mc Donald's either because they might have tried to cullthe cows for burger harvest. LOL

YO · **Posted:** Mon Apr 26, 2004 2:09 pm

I see that this has gotten pretty emotional for a few people. If you go back and read my first post, you will see the response I got from one of the derby organizers. He got the information from the Peterborough MNR office. I have cut and paste the repsonse I got word for word.

Thank you for your question and here is my answer. Please do not think that I agree that the answer is logical, it is from Ministry officials in Peterboro, and it is completely unmanageable.

On a daily basis a fisherman is only allowed one Trophy fish ie:over 63 cm. approx 25 inches. This means that you can only weigh in one fish per day and it also means that if you catch and release a trophy fish while fishing you are supposed to be done for the day in the event you catch another, which would make you illegal.
It is therefore not appropriate for a fisherman to have a +63 cm fish in a well with the purpose of culling when a larger one is caught.
I don't follow your example of going to bed and getting up next morning on same day, but there are 2 days of fishing in this fishing weekend. This means you can catch 2 trophy fish, one Saturday and one Sunday.
I suggest you look carefully over the side of the boat to see the size before you actually land the fish to be sure it is one you want, or it could get away. Just kidding !!
If it gets away it probably had a $ 20,000 tag you didn't notice.
Please don't ask me to explain what happens when there are 2 people in the boat, I suppose one must go home.
In any event we will weigh one fish per day per fisherman for live release.

The last sentence in his reply is the one that I would pay most attention to. "In any event we will weigh one fish per day per fisherman for live release."

Guest · **Posted:** Mon Apr 26, 2004 3:17 pm

Yo:

Thank you for posting the email response you received from one of the derby organizers. It helps understand why there can be confusion.

Part of your first post was "I asked this question to a derby official today. He replied by email telling me that by law, you are really only allowed to CATCH one trophy fish per day. That is, if you get one fish over 25" long, you are not allowed to catch another that day."

Without attempting in any fashion to criticize that derby organizer, his interpretation was unfortunately incorrect, in my opinion. And as I stated in an earlier post, there's nothing more I'd like to see than someone from MNR post the "official interpretation", even if it contradicts my own opinion.
The whole discussion would be worthwhile if the official MNR interpretation were to be posted.

"Catching and releasing" more than one walleye over 63 cm in any one day does not contradict Ontario's Fishing Regulations. Indeed, how many of us watched the fishing show where Targa 2 and Pete Bowman released almost a dozen walleyes over 63 cm in one day. However, it does contradict the regulations if one were to "catch and retain" more than one walleye over 63 cm in any one day. Whenever a walleye is caught, regardless the size, the fisherman must decide immediately (say within 2 minutes - enough time to measure the fish and take a picture) to either release that walleye or retain that walleye. And once a walleye is retained, it can not legally be un-retained (e.g. released hours later in favour of a bigger walleye).

Similarly, the actual interpretation contained in the email ("it also means that if you catch and release a trophy fish while fishing you are supposed to be done for the day in the event you catch another, which would make you illegal. ") is also incorrect for identical reasons. There is a fundamental legal difference in interpretation (by MNR) between catching and immediate releasing verses catching and retaining.

bosc · **Posted:** Mon Apr 26, 2004 8:32 pm

I sent two questions back to the organizers, hopefully this will clear it up

Here a cut and paste. Questions first.

1) Can a fisher catch a big fish, decide not to enter it, release it and try
for a bigger one??

2) If a member of our team enters a fish at say 9 am, does he have to stop
fishing or can he go out and get himself a few "small eaters"?? If so, can
the other partner in the boat continue to try to catch his fish to enter??

Answer:
According to the rules, one big fish per day per fisherman. The release does
not help as you already have the one fish allowed. If a big fish is caught
then I believe by the rules you are done for the day as it is possible you
could catch a second large fish in error. It seems the other partner could
continue fishing and you could be a spectator. All of this does not make
sense but it is our understanding of rule.

Bosc

polliwogg · **Posted:** Mon Apr 26, 2004 9:01 pm

It surprizes me how many of you guys don't know the regs.
THis has been hashed out on other boards and guest is absolutely right.
And as on other boards a peta accusation usually shows up on the second page (rum in the morning's not good for you Dan).

The slot size puts those who ignore the regs at a great advantage in this derby.

YO · **Posted:** Tue Apr 27, 2004 9:11 am

So,
To re-cap, just so everyone knows....

1. no culling
2. you are allowed to weigh one trophy per day.

Simple.

Only problem, you can be sure that of the many people entered in this derby, there is only a very small percentage that actually know the rules. Don't be surprised if you see guys culling. What do you do in that case? Report them? Tell them that what they are doing is against the rules?

Have fun guys, I know I will!

Guest · **Posted:** Tue Apr 27, 2004 10:25 am

What follows is an excerpt from a reply I received from the Trenton Kiwanis World Walleye 2004 folks to an email I had sent them on 6 Mar 04 to apprise them that they had neglected to clarify the rules with respect to catch and retain of walleyes over 63 cm in their derby rules:

"Yes there was a mistake (last year) and one person for a short time had two fish on the leader board and when noticed the name was removed. We do not need to reiterate all of the fishing rules of Ontario in our rules just the same as we do not say how many lines you use or how many fish may be possessed. Remember to go home right away if you catch and release a +63cm fish while out on the water, because that is the rule.
We look after the fish and we follow the rules, and we hope to see you again in the future."

In my opinion, their response incorporated an inaccurate interpretation with respect to the rule (Ontario Fishing Regulations).

I contend that the pertinent Ontario Fishing Regulations should be emphasized in the Trenton Kiwanis Walleye World 2004 rules for the derby to ensure that every participant has an equal opportunity to win.

I have requested the appropriate MNR enforcement supervisor take immediate action to clarify the rules either by posting a clarification to quintefishing.com or by ensuring that the derby organizers do.

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What's the daily limit for the derby??

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